Episode 2
From Evidence Gathering to Fraud Prevention: AI's Impact on Legal Practices
Navigating the complex interplay between artificial intelligence and the legal landscape, Will Charlesworth engages in a thought-provoking dialogue with Neil Miller, the founder and CEO of 10 Intelligence.
Their conversation unfolds the significant transformations that AI has brought to the fields of investigations, due diligence, and fraud prevention.
Mr Miller shares his insights on how AI has revolutionised the way investigations are conducted, transitioning from manual document reviews to automated processes that enhance efficiency and accuracy.
He emphasises, however, that while AI tools expedite data gathering and analysis, the human element remains irreplaceable. The ability to interpret nuanced evidence, conduct interviews, and provide contextual understanding still relies heavily on experienced professionals.
The episode highlights the importance of balancing technological advancements with human insight, particularly in high-stakes environments like fraud investigations, where accuracy and accountability are paramount.
Takeaways:
- AI has transformed how evidence is gathered, making processes faster but needing human oversight.
- Neil Miller emphasises the importance of human intuition in investigations despite advancements in AI.
- Different jurisdictions have varying data regulations, affecting how AI can be utilised in investigations.
- AI is a valuable tool, but it cannot replace the human element in fraud investigations.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
The information provided in this podcast is for general information purposes only and does not constitute legal advice.
Will Charlesworth:Although Will Charlesworth is a qualified lawyer, the content of this discussion is intended to provide general insights into legal topics and should not be relied upon as specific legal advice applicable to your situation.
Will Charlesworth:It is also Will's personal opinions.
Will Charlesworth:No solicitor client relationship is established by your listening to or interacting with this podcast.
Will Charlesworth:You're listening to with aifm.
:Hello and welcome to the Law with AI podcast.
:I'm your host, Will Charlesworth.
:I'm a solicitor specializing in intellectual property and reputation protection law.
:I'm also a member of the UK Parliament's or Parliamentary Group on Artificial Intelligence.
:This podcast is about breaking down and understanding how artificial intelligence is challenging the world of law, policy and ethics.
:Every couple of weeks I'll be looking at important topics such as how AI is impacting on established areas of legal practice, how it's challenging the law itself in areas such as privacy and intellectual property rights.
:I'll also be looking at how AI is raising ethical concerns and how it's ultimately reshaping the regulatory landscape.
:To help me in this task, I'll be having some candid and enjoyable conversations with some fascinating guests, including fellow lawyers, technology professionals and policymakers, to gain a real insight into what it means not just for the legal profession, but but also for the commercial landscape and society as a whole.
:So whether you're a lawyer, a policymaker, or just someone curious about how AI and the law mix, you're in the right place.
:So let's jump in and I can keep you informed and ahead of the game.
:So today I have the pleasure of being joined by someone I have known for many years now, throughout my professional career, Neil Miller.
:Neil is the founder and CEO of 10 Intelligence, which for the last 12 years has specialized in due diligence, intelligence gathering, brand protection, cybersecurity, digital forensics, asset tracing, surveillance and fraud investigations.
:I think I've got all of those.
Neil Miller:Yes.
:Hopefully.
:Hopefully.
:Neil, I think when I first met.
:When I first met you, Neil.
Neil Miller:It.
:Was an intellectual property case and it was to do with counterfeiting and you helped me out 10 intelligence.
:Your company helped me out with some amazing evidence gathering and some other compiling of data.
:So welcome.
:Thank you for joining me.
:How are you?
Neil Miller:Thank you.
Neil Miller:I'm good, I'm good.
Neil Miller:Thank you for the introduction.
Neil Miller:Certainly a lot of services we provide and to get them all out was quite, quite a task.
Neil Miller:Yes, I think it was probably about eight years ago, I reckon, maybe, maybe a touch longer.
Neil Miller:We had that case that came in with the counterfeiting issues, I can't remember actually where it was located, whether it was in.
Neil Miller:Is it in the UK or was it actually.
:It was in the uk?
Neil Miller:Yes.
:Yeah.
:I think there was a potential UAE element to it, which obviously is the advantage of your.
:Of your firm in terms of its connections there.
:But, yes, it was.
:It was great to have that support and that level of intelligence on the ground as well, which in AI cases is always.
:It's always extremely important.
Neil Miller:Yes, yeah, you're right.
Neil Miller:I think a lot of the cases that we've done over the years have all been different.
Neil Miller:Different types of cases, different types of issues.
Neil Miller:A lot of investigations start from a belief that something's gone wrong or something is being infringed.
Neil Miller:Whether it's a product, a trademark or somebody internal that could be defrauding an organization or employer, you never know where it starts.
Neil Miller:So to be able to do the intelligence gathering, profile the individual profile, the case is always a good start.
Neil Miller:And I think that's how we helped your pathway in that investigation.
:Yes, yeah, thank you.
:And it was really helpful as well.
:I think the client was quite surprised at the level of information and evidence we could gather as well.
:So that was always very good to be able to impress a client.
:As I say, thank you for coming along today because I think you have a level of experience and knowledge and understanding in the technology area and certainly in the areas that I mentioned before, which can add to our discussion about how AI is impacting, which kind of brings me neatly in a seamless segue to my first question, which is, how has AI impacted on your business?
:How are you using it now?
:And the landscape changed.
Neil Miller:It has definitely changed, Definitely changed.
Neil Miller:And it's difficult to actually pinpoint when it changed.
Neil Miller:In investigations, you have to rely on finding evidence to support your clients needs, whatever kind of investigation it is.
Neil Miller:And the AI angle of things have just changed the landscape completely along the days where people like myself, certified fraud examiner or investigator, would be rifling through documents manually or going through records on a computer manually and just trying to use your trained eye and everything else to technology.
Neil Miller:Now that can do that automatically, you know, and I think that's.
Neil Miller:That's a challenge that we all face in terms of, you know, practitioners.
Neil Miller:Yeah, I think, you know, people like myself who have had 25 years of experience in the industry will find it difficult to keep up with how technology is actually doing our job.
Neil Miller:But I think the.
Neil Miller:Certainly as an investigator or a lawyer or some professionals, I do Think that there's still that, that mental side of being an investigator, using your knowledge, your experience, where to look, how to look for, how to ask questions in interviews and things, rather than just relying on AI to do that for you.
Neil Miller:And I also think that although AI is, can be very effective, it can be very fast to really go through documents or spreadsheets or data.
Neil Miller:It can certainly assist an investigation and cut out a lot of the manual process if you like, and then you can concentrate on what the documentation or what the results, what the key findings actually come out and then you test it because obviously you can't rely always on AI and how it's come to that thought process.
Neil Miller:So, yeah, it's a massive change.
Neil Miller:I think a lot of organizations are trying to implement internal AI measures to help the process, the manual process.
Neil Miller:There's lots of AI technology out there to help organizations like US and banks, financial services, any kind of organization.
Neil Miller:There is a lot more AI on the market, which will affect everybody's working day.
:So in terms of how you approach an investigation, I imagine you have that initial planning stage as to what resource you'll need.
:And I mean, I don't know, you can tell me better than that.
:But how do you decide what level of AI or what level of technology to integrate and how much that can be relied upon?
Neil Miller:Yeah, AI has been around for a while, so we have been using it for a while.
Neil Miller:So if you take a standard profiling investigation, for example, whether it's a fraudster who has defrauded an organization of a million pounds or whatever it might be, and the client, the lawyers or internal counsel would want to profile their background, right?
Neil Miller:And they want to know whether they have any assets or where they're located and all these things.
Neil Miller:We do use AI technology in house to be able to do that kind of profiling for us.
Neil Miller:But that's been around for years.
Neil Miller:But I think the buzzword of AI has significantly changed over the last couple of years.
Neil Miller:So things like, you know, searching media databases, companies, registries, online checks, that can all be done almost, you know, within minutes.
Neil Miller:But again, as investigators, you have to deliver evidence and you can't rely necessarily on, you know, the information that's been generated.
Neil Miller:So you have to cross reference it, you have to make sure that it's, it's all accurate before you can then provide it to the client.
Neil Miller:So we've used it for a while.
Neil Miller:There's certain data sets and databases that are out there that we can use.
Neil Miller:We can filter it, recognizes some of the search Terms that we commonly use to help bypass that manual process.
Neil Miller:So it's click of a button and we get whatever results that are relevant to that inquiry, that jurisdiction, that person.
Neil Miller:Yeah.
Neil Miller:And I also think that, you know, the technology is getting better, quicker, more cost effective.
Neil Miller:Yeah.
Neil Miller:So it's interesting how AI can help us at the start, but like I say, you can't rely on the information that is provided back.
Neil Miller:Information is key.
Neil Miller:Evidence is key for all of our clients.
Neil Miller:So, yes, it's an interesting topic when to rely on information generated by AI.
Neil Miller:And I guess the trick is to make sure that you're able to dissect it, evaluate it, and actually put it into an evidence report that is accurate.
:And that's.
:And that's what your clients, whether they're law firms or banks, whatever, are instructing you to do.
:That's why they're retaining you, is that they know you will use whatever technology is available, but that has to be accurate.
:And ultimately the.
:As with everything, as you say, AI is kind of a buzzword and it covers just a lot of technology and software that's already been out there for quite a long time.
:But behind all of it, there has to be the accountability stops with a human being or a corporate entity.
Neil Miller:Yes.
:And because of your qualifications, because of the regulatory background as well, I imagine you're obviously very conscious about that.
Neil Miller:Very conscious.
Neil Miller:Because if we're not doing our job correctly and we miss something, certainly in the financial regulatory space, you know, we do a lot of work for listed companies on the stock exchanges and the other markets where we look into the background of all of the directors who are being appointed to the board.
Neil Miller:So if we make a mistake and then they go on to be.
Neil Miller:I'm not saying they do, but, you know, they, they go on to possibly defraud the company or steal from the company or fiddle the books to make the financial transactions and statements look really good.
:Yeah.
Neil Miller:For that company, then ultimately we'll be responsible for not picking something like that up.
Neil Miller:And it's the same goes with evidence gathering in any kind of investigation.
Neil Miller:You know, if we, if we miss something or if we interpreted something that was, that was, was not accurate, and then the lawyers are in court presenting that evidence, and then the defense might say, well, actually that's not correct.
Neil Miller:And, and then, yeah, obviously our reputation will be under the microscope.
Neil Miller:So.
Neil Miller:Yeah.
Neil Miller:So it's important.
Neil Miller:Yeah, very important.
:I think there is, there can be a danger of over reliance on AI or that type of that technology generally.
:I'm not saying I'M not saying for you, but I think generally in a lot of professions now as well, because it provides a shortcut to certain things.
:There's the nature of human beings and our brains wanting to find the shortcut to everything.
Neil Miller:I think that's very true.
Neil Miller:In fact, I was chatting to one of our clients last week and I was trying to convince him to use our services because he hasn't used them for a while.
Neil Miller:And he says, well, we're using this other firm know.
Neil Miller:My heart sank immediately, of course, but he said they, they miss stuff, they miss information, they miss vital profiling information.
Neil Miller:And this, this goes back to the, the background checks on, on directors and key executives and she shareholders because they, they're, they just do a tick box approach.
Neil Miller:They're just searching for information that they own and don't go outside the box now.
Neil Miller:Whereas yes, you can do that to a, to an element of pulling in all the online sources that you can.
Neil Miller:It's what's not in the.
Neil Miller:Yeah, you know, in the ether.
Neil Miller:It's what's beyond the online information where the gaps, where are the risks.
Neil Miller:And that's where, you know, like a said earlier, the human element of being able to interrogate data, interrogate evidence brings a completely different skill set.
Neil Miller:And at the end of the day we want to make sure that the client is mitigating all kinds of risk from a regulatory standpoint.
Neil Miller:And this chap said, well, this other company missed a load of things.
Neil Miller:And I remembered your company who did reports for us a few years ago and we were really impressed with the whole dynamic of not just checking available online sources, but went outside the box a little bit.
Neil Miller:And he's emailed me this morning with a new quote and everything else.
Neil Miller:So I mean I go, it's good news.
Neil Miller:Yeah, it's very good.
Neil Miller:But I think the point is AI in the regulatory space and in the legal space cannot be relied on fully.
Neil Miller:Maybe in years to come it gets a lot better, a lot more accurate.
Neil Miller:But at the moment, from my point of view, you definitely need a human professional.
Neil Miller:Like you said, we're all professionals and I think we need to be there.
:And from what you were saying as well.
:That's right.
:Really interesting about thinking outside of the box, but also going outside of the box and finding other information from other sources which haven't already been fed into large language models, etc.
:Obviously you, you operate in different jurisdictions as well and I know in your background you have been on the ground in probably most of the countries in the world.
:I Think, and obviously the UAE is a focal place for you as well because you have an office out there.
:Do you think the fact that if you're having to gather information from different jurisdictions, say, particularly if you're dealing with listed companies, hiring directors who've probably worked in lots of different countries and had different educations in different places, do you find, I suppose, that you can't rely on AI as much because different jurisdictions have different rules on what data can be captured and stored and processed and.
Neil Miller:Yeah, definitely.
Neil Miller:I mean a lot of, a lot of jurisdictions do not have the same technology or infrastructure to hold vast amounts of data.
Neil Miller:For example, a lot of African companies, countries, sorry, they don't have the infrastructure to actually store that data and be able to manage it and to search it and all those kind of things.
Neil Miller:And equally in places like the uae, there's a lot of focus on culture around privacy.
Neil Miller:So they don't want to disclose they do have the information.
Neil Miller:They're probably one of the leading countries in the world that collects most data from everybody, but they don't release it, they don't share it unless there's some, some need by the law enforcement or the government themselves.
Neil Miller:So that's, that's a challenge.
Neil Miller:And to be able to get information that you want through AI is a real challenge because it's not available and you can do some things.
Neil Miller:And then the other challenge, I suppose, for doing multi jurisdictional searches and evidence gathering is that a lot of the information are behind paywalls and you know, they're not necessarily open to the public.
Neil Miller:You have to be a subscriber or have a membership or all those kind of things.
Neil Miller:So the AI as we stand won't be able to search beyond those firewalls or those paywalls.
Neil Miller:And then, you know, beyond that there's all the information you could possibly want.
Neil Miller:So there are limitations.
Neil Miller:That AI can gather all the information from the surface web if you like, but beyond the Surface Web it won't go beyond.
Neil Miller:And that's where there's a lot of critical data, a lot of critical evidence that would be missed.
:Yeah.
:So in terms of that, 10 intelligence is still needed on the ground.
Neil Miller:Exactly, yeah.
Neil Miller:And actually picking up the phone and speaking with people, it's amazing what information you can get.
Neil Miller:Right.
Neil Miller:We use our own AI, but no, it's a lot of the time because the data is not available in an online database that the AI cannot get the information or transcribe it into a usable format.
Neil Miller:A simple phone call to the company registry in Ghana for example, would actually glean more intelligence than relying on very limited data in their database.
Neil Miller:And it's the same around the world, all different jurisdictions that have that kind of lack of data infrastructure or the cultural side of privacy.
Neil Miller:And that's why old fashioned investigators, boots on the ground and a simple phone call can actually go beyond that.
Neil Miller:Which is why like you say 10 intelligence is needed.
:So that's, in terms of the landscape as it is, it's pretty difficult with AI to look into the future because it's changing so rapidly.
:And by the time we've recorded this, there will be probably several more versions of ChatGPT that have been released.
:But in terms of say the short term future, say the next three to five years, insofar as you, as you can kind of think where it may lead, where do you think AI may be going in your industry and in your space?
:How do you think it's going to, can you make any predictions about how it might, it might evolve predictions?
Neil Miller:I think, I think fraudsters, you know, the criminals are learning quicker than, than we are.
Neil Miller:They have a lot of access to a lot of information that may have been breached in data breaches or hacks or whatever you want to call them.
Neil Miller:That information is available on the dark web or the deep web.
Neil Miller:And that's the challenge for organizations such as us, is to be able to think like the criminals in a way that we can actually extract the information.
Neil Miller:From an AI standpoint, I think there is a challenge around, you know, the intelligence side.
Neil Miller:Sorry, the intelligence side is there, the intelligence is there.
Neil Miller:It's the artificial processing of trying to find that intelligence is missing.
Neil Miller:And I think that's probably going to be quite a challenge for companies like us.
Neil Miller:I also think that there are lots of technologies out there that are actually helping our industry.
Neil Miller:There is.
Neil Miller:I was talking to one of our vendors the other day.
Neil Miller:They can search, you know, a million documents in a heartbeat and looking to see if they, if they've been forged or altered.
:Okay.
Neil Miller:And so that, that's, that's a great tool to have in your, in your arsenal because, you know, certainly for financial institutions, regulatory authority institutions and, and companies that are, are very document heavy, being able to, you know, in a heartbeat, just make sure that these invoices haven't been forged or education certificates haven't been amended, all these kind of things that this, this AI can do.
Neil Miller:Yeah, you know, takes that whole process out of somebody like me looking at a document and not being able to spot the mistake because obviously technology is getting a Lot better.
Neil Miller:Being able to amend documents is a lot easier.
Neil Miller:So yeah, I think that's, that kind of technology is going to help.
Neil Miller:Certainly for fraud investigations and fraud prevention, there are other technologies that can analyze vast amounts of communication data.
Neil Miller:For example, your email infrastructure, it can learn and evolve what kind of language a user is using on a day to day basis.
Neil Miller:And if there's something that's outside of that parameter, then it can flag, it can alert to a security department or, or whoever is in the investigation department, for example, to raise the concern that this, this user has used a different style of language.
Neil Miller:So there are technologies that can, can certainly help the industry.
Neil Miller:In three to five years, I think there's going to be a lot more, a lot more AI technology companies fighting for the same market.
Neil Miller:I think there's going to be lots of spin offs, lots of startup companies that are all trying to do the same thing but have a little tweak there.
Neil Miller:And I just think that they will then look at helping organizations in a certain industry sector and concentrate in those areas.
Neil Miller:So yeah, it's going to be a very competitive space.
Neil Miller:I think firms like us, you know, there is a danger that we're not needed or not needed as much.
Neil Miller:You know, the better the artificial intelligence gets over the next few years in terms of what we do, in terms of evidence gathering and information gathering, a lot of AI technology will be able to just automate that and it will get better and better and better.
Neil Miller:So it's a, it's a huge concern for me in terms of having, you know, a good team around us.
Neil Miller:It, it will affect whether we keep team members.
Neil Miller:Yeah, I suppose, you know, the other thing is all our team members all have a different language as well.
Neil Miller:So that helps.
Neil Miller:So yeah, it's, it's, I can't predict the future.
:No, of course not, no.
Neil Miller:But I think there are some concerns around how it affects organizations like us, you know, in a pro sense.
Neil Miller:I think the technology will help us streamline investigations and take out that employment need, if you like, or cost in terms of resource and monthly salaries and that kind of thing.
Neil Miller:But that's not what we're about.
Neil Miller:I don't think, you know, we, we want to use, you know, human intelligence, not just rely on the artificial stuff.
:Yes.
:Having met some of your team as well, I do know that they are extremely bright people, as you say, with multi languages who, who are just thinking almost on a different level.
:And to try and replace that I think would be very difficult.
:I see, as you say, AI helping them and assisting them and taking away some of the more labor intensive kind of tasks and allowing them hopefully to focus on more of the cerebral things that AI, I suppose particularly can't do.
:But perhaps also with different territories, different jurisdictions around the world taking different approaches to AI regulation.
:I'm a lawyer, so occasionally I have to use the word regulation.
:It allows me to keep being a solicitor.
:Different regulations means that as you were saying before, different databases and different information will be different in around the world.
:So in terms of fully replacing people, I suppose that would be a lot more difficult because you're still going to have to do a lot of boots on the ground type of investigation work.
:And in terms of your investigation work as well, a lot of it is literally going in and physically being in places which AI, as much as Elon Musk with his robots is trying to do, he can't be replaced.
Neil Miller:That's true.
Neil Miller:Because, you know, when we, when we do a full fraud investigation, we gather the evidence in terms of documents, emails, digital evidence as well, from laptops and the like.
Neil Miller:But then we summarize what we see and then we interview people.
Neil Miller:Okay, so we want to interview witnesses to a fraud, whistleblowers to a fraud, the actual suspects as well.
Neil Miller:And AI would.
Neil Miller:Well, I don't think it would be able to do that, but it could probably predict certain questions.
Neil Miller:But would the suspect or the witness actually say anything to a camera, for example?
Neil Miller:They're not.
Neil Miller:You have to be looking them in the eyes to actually disarm them a bit as well.
Neil Miller:Exactly, exactly.
Neil Miller:And also see how they're reacting.
Neil Miller:Are they nervous, are they sweating, are they twitching?
Neil Miller:Or those kind of things.
Neil Miller:AI won't be able to spot.
Neil Miller:Not yet.
Neil Miller:I'm sure there is some Elon Musk technology in robots that are monitoring facial expressions and they're lying.
Neil Miller:So yeah, that might actually come in the future thinking about it.
Neil Miller:But at the moment you definitely need to be able to live and breathe, scratch and sniff, right?
:Yes.
:And as somebody who has instructed you and needs, as a lawyer, I need investigation services and reports and things like that you want to pick up.
:Because as much as I can draft an email of instruction and say these are the parameters and this is it, I also, it might just be me, but also just want to pick up the phone and chat to you and explain the background to certain things and we can have a full interaction, which AI relies a lot on the quality, and you said it before, the quality of the prompt.
:So you know what to ask, you know what to say to get certain responses, but say somebody wanting to use those type of services as a company that has no interaction with it previously might not have any idea whatsoever.
:Whereas your experience as you come in and say well what do you want to know?
:They go we think we need to know this.
:And then you go, but really do you need to know that how you know?
:And you can use your experience, I think to go.
:To go into that and add to that.
Neil Miller:Yeah, the experience is a huge thing.
Neil Miller:Certainly in our kind of professions where you're advising clients, you know, to rely on ChatGPT for information, for example, it might give you a good starting point but it's not necessarily factual because it's drawing information from all different types of sources who you do not know whether it's factual in the first place and etc.
Neil Miller:Yeah, I mean it's a very useful, very useful tool for certain aspects of things.
Neil Miller:But we have to provide guidance and advice to our clients and our experience, you know, we've done thousands of different cases for law firms, whether it's intellectual property theft or counterfeiting or fraud or whatever it might be.
Neil Miller:Each case is different but it follows the similar kind of parameters of how you investigate that case.
Neil Miller:So to talk to a client is so much more easier to say well, in our experience this is what we did for a similar client in a similar position, this really worked well.
Neil Miller:And I couldn't have that conversation.
:We talked about, we talked about fraud and investigating fraud that's happened is the back end of it.
:And I know having acted in some fraud cases how it can have such a dramatic and debilitating impact on businesses, their bottom line, but also on morale within the company as well.
:It impacts down to the very employee, other employees and things like that.
:And I understand, because you're very good on LinkedIn that I understand that you have recently launched a new and you can explain it better than I can.
:So I'm going to hand over to you but a pre assessment tool to ahead of potential fraud and manage or mitigate risks.
:That's probably me explaining it really badly.
:I'm going to hand over to you to.
Neil Miller:It's very good.
Neil Miller:It's very good, very good.
Neil Miller:So you obviously on LinkedIn quite a lot then.
:I stalk many people on LinkedIn.
Neil Miller:That's what we do.
Neil Miller:Yes, we do have a fraud anti fraud assessments tool talking about AI, artificial intelligence.
Neil Miller:We're actually using some technology to predict certain questions and predict certain answers in terms of going to an organization and asking 100 questions, for example around their Anti fraud controls, for example, do they have a fraud policy?
Neil Miller:If the answer is yes, can you share it with us, you know, all that kind of stuff and then we use a high funny enough to look at the fraud policy and to dig out some key terms to see if it's actually relevant or useful.
Neil Miller:Yep.
Neil Miller:So yeah, the tool is available and it's going to be online.
Neil Miller:So it's a lot more easy, more interactive for the clients to use.
Neil Miller:When it's more time efficient, it's a lot more cost effective as well.
Neil Miller: ou like, on site, which costs: Neil Miller:It will look at, you know, how your, how your workplace culture is, your culture around zero tolerance to fraud.
Neil Miller:Is it approach from top down or bottom up?
Neil Miller:Does senior management, are they invested in stopping it or preventing it and what's their messaging?
Neil Miller:The actual antifraud controls themselves, dual signatories, access control rights, pre employment screening checks, all these kind of things will come out in this assessment to see whether to give them a grade, I suppose, to give them a scale of where they are and what work needs to be done to help prevent fraud in the workplace.
Neil Miller:There is a stat that is well known amongst our industry and the association of Certified Fraud Examiners that all organizations will suffer between 2 and 5% of revenue to fraud or lose 2 to 5% of revenue to fraud per year.
:Wow.
Neil Miller:So if you think about it, that's, that's only based on those frauds that have been reported.
:Yeah.
Neil Miller:And that figure would probably be a lot higher.
:Yeah.
Neil Miller:If a lot of the unreported cases.
Neil Miller:And the worrying thing is the average cost of a fraud is $1.6 million.
Neil Miller:So what's that one?
Neil Miller:£1.5 million.
Neil Miller:Wow.
Neil Miller: which is, I think based upon: Neil Miller:So it gives you a good average of, of what the world is facing.
Neil Miller:So yes, the tool is there, it's, it's really interactive, it asks lots of different questions and our focus is to make sure that organizations are actually boosting their defenses from fraud because fraud will happen.
Neil Miller:Where there is opportunity, there is fraud.
:It's good to get ahead of that as well and try and manage and mitigate risk.
:Because if, if you learn anything from, well, particularly litigation is that you can't eliminate risk, you can only Manage it, mitigate it.
Neil Miller:Yeah, exactly.
Neil Miller:And prevention is always better than the cure.
:Sure.
Neil Miller:And that's the same for this.
:And if they want to find out more about your pre assessment tool and 10 intelligence, where can they go to find out?
Neil Miller:Okay, so the website is www.tenintel.com.
Neil Miller:our social media handles as an intelligence.
Neil Miller:You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and yeah, just check out the website, there's lots of information on there.
:Thank you very much for coming.
Neil Miller:You're welcome, Neil.
:I really appreciate it.
:It's been absolutely fascinating to hear about how AI has impacted on your industry, how you're using it, how we're not quite there yet in terms of fully replacing all humans on Earth, which is a good thing to hear.
:But there are definitely some very interesting, interesting points from that.
:So, yeah, thank you very much for coming in.
:I know you're flying off later to Dubai.
:Never sleeps.
Neil Miller:Boots on the ground, right?
Neil Miller:Boots on the ground.
:Boots on the ground, exactly.
:Yeah.
:So thank you very much.
Neil Miller:You're welcome.
:Thanks very much again.
Neil Miller:Thank you.
Neil Miller:Thanks for having me.
